From left, Sean Hayes, Will Arnett and Jason Bateman, the hosts of the “SmartLess” podcast. They recently signed a deal with SiriusXM reportedly worth $100 million.
Credit...Amy Lombard for The New York Times

Will the ‘SmartLess’ Podcast Be the Biggest Role of Their Careers?

Started during the pandemic, this venture is the first step in a media empire being built by the actors Sean Hayes, Will Arnett and Jason Bateman.

by · NY Times

It’s a warm Saturday afternoon in the middle of August, and the actors Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes and Will Arnett are gathered on the stage of the Stephen Talkhouse, a popular music venue in the Long Island summer resort town of Amagansett, telling stories and swapping insults with Howard Stern, the longtime radio personality.

“When you hear the problems he’s had,” Mr. Stern joked of Mr. Bateman, the former child star turned Emmy-winner actor and director.

“Oh!” Mr. Arnett said. “He’s had a lot of problems.”

“Look at him!” Mr. Hayes said, gesturing toward the 55-year-old Mr. Bateman, whose shaggy, shoulder-length hair and disheveled beard were all grown in preparation for “Black Rabbit,” an upcoming limited series on Netflix in which he’s both the executive producer and star.

In the audience, an invited group of about 60 people — including the actors Jon Hamm and Bradley Cooper; the “Tonight Show” host, Jimmy Fallon; the ABC anchorman George Stephanopoulos; and David Zaslav, the Warner Bros. Discovery chief executive — all chuckled along as they watched a live taping of the latest episode of the “SmartLess” podcast.

Jokes aside, this was a serious career moment for these actors. Months earlier, the three, who are close friends and started their Los Angeles-based podcast during the depths of the pandemic, had signed a three-year distribution and advertising deal with the audio entertainment company SiriusXM reportedly worth more than $100 million.

This was, for all practical purposes, their coming-out party.

Sitting with Mr. Stern, whose celebrated jump from terrestrial radio to the satellite-radio platform Sirius in 2006 helped put the fledgling company on the media map, was a milestone for this new part of their public lives. The deal not only is among the most lucrative of their careers, but it will also allow them to launch new podcasts and other business ventures.

The off-the-cuff, rapid-fire weekly podcast is one that regularly descends into an all-out romper room populated by full-grown adults — ones who make fun of their career missteps (Mr. Bateman’s choosing to do “Teen Wolf Too”) or well-paying side gigs (Mr. Arnett’s throaty voice-over spots for Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups) or even moments from their personal lives that don’t seem the likeliest for comic material (the abandonment of Mr. Hayes and his four siblings by their father when they were young).

It’s a formula that seems to be working. In their most recent published report, the independent Edison Research group, which tracks listenership, ranked “SmartLess” sixth among all podcasts in the United States.

Launched in summer 2020, “SmartLess” remains one of the rare cultural tent poles that were born during the pandemic era and have continued to thrive. (Has anyone even spoken the words “Tiger King” since 2020?) Long after the last call for those weekly Zoom happy hours, the “SmartLess” podcast has steadily grown its audience into the millions.

“One of the biggest compliments I always get is they feel a sense of connectivity because we connected in a time that we needed to in order to feel like we were surviving,” Mr. Hayes said, speaking of the show’s audience. “A lot of people say, ‘I feel like I’m at a dinner party I wasn’t invited to or wouldn’t normally attend.’”

As with other podcasts, there are the celebrity drop-ins (chosen by one of the hosts as a surprise for the other two): Vince Vaughn and Ben Stiller, Jennifer Aniston and Kevin Hart. But it’s the heavy hitters outside this Hollywood bubble who have given “SmartLess” its heft. On Aug. 17, 2020, Kamala Harris, then a California senator, showed up — not yet knowing that the Democratic candidate for the presidency, Joseph R. Biden Jr., would soon choose her as his running mate. As president, Mr. Biden has appeared twice — once on his own, then alongside former Presidents Barack Obama and Bill Clinton. On that appearance, a live taping in New York City, Mr. Obama took a swipe at Donald J. Trump, caustically referring to his reputation among his fellow New Yorkers. “There’s nobody in New York who does business with him or will lend him money,” the 44th president said of the 45th. “He’s not considered a serious guy here.”

Given the three men have extensive backgrounds in comedy, it’s no surprise that the jokes dominate a typical podcast. But as Mr. Bateman explained, “When you’re done laughing, you look up and you are still talking to somebody you would not otherwise have any access to ask questions to — like the three presidents, for Christ’s sake.”

“This moment is not lost on us,” Mr. Arnett said. “We’re like, ‘Can you believe that we’re here doing this?’”

From Poker to Podcast

The three first teamed up in the early 2000s. When Mr. Bateman had Mr. Arnett continually cracking-up on the first day of the cult Fox sitcom “Arrested Development” — where they played Michael and George Oscar (Gob) Bluth II from 2003 to 2006 — that was it. Friendship formed.

Mr. Hayes joined their crew in 2004, soon after Mr. Arnett filmed a guest spot on “Will & Grace,” the Emmy-winning NBC comedy on which Mr. Hayes played the high-voltage, scene-stealing Jack McFarland for 11 seasons. The two men quickly bonded and emerged as best friends. (Years later, Mr. Hayes would star in the second season of Mr. Arnett’s short-lived CBS sitcom, “The Millers.”)

For years, the three maintained regular spots at a Tuesday poker game hosted in Venice by Kyle Gass (one half of the rock duo Tenacious D). Any given week, they might look up from their cards and see Jack Black — the band’s other half — or the actors Andy Richter and Tim Robbins, or the actor and director Jon Favreau.

In truth, it didn’t matter who showed up. They were there to banter and bond.

As the friendship deepened, the trio watched other celebrities walk into the nebulous, darkened mist of the podcast world, including their good friend Dax Shepard, who had developed a hugely successful podcast in 2018, “Armchair Expert.”

In March 2020, the three friends sat down in Mr. Hayes’s office in the Universal Studios lot. Months earlier, Mr. Arnett had told the two of a podcast idea he had for himself called “The Journey.” Mr. Arnett could have guessed what would follow. His friends went full Mean Girls on him, telling Mr. Arnett they’d make their own podcast — a better one. An actually funny one — without him.

By then they’d settled in for a serious talk. Or as serious as a talk could get with all of them in one setting. The producer Michael Grant Terry went over logistics — the initial financial lift it would take, the locations in Los Angeles he’d scouted for them.

Then came the Covid shutdown. Mr. Terry, along with two other producers, went about making sure things could work remotely. Certain decisions had already been made — including not having a video component so that the famous guests could be at ease.

There was also the signature surprise element to “SmartLess.” Mr. Terry said Mr. Bateman came up with the idea of having one host choose a guest who would be a secret to the other two until airtime — a concept that immediately hooked audiences and that has been a staple of the podcast ever since.

As for the title?

“We were trying to think of a name that represented that we don’t know anything,” Mr. Arnett said. “And Jason — literally out of the blue — just goes, ‘SmartLess.’ Like, ‘less smart.’ He just made up a word.”

They recorded their first episode in May 2020; the premiere podcast dropped on July 20. Unable to take on acting gigs, the gang logged more than 30 episodes that summer.

“We were going through such a horrible time,” Mr. Terry said. “But to have this hour of a day, whether you’re walking or running or stuck at home, it became apparent that it was just this perfect moment in time when people needed this laughter and needed this joy from these guys.”

In many episodes, the podcast breaks into a good-natured brawl. And guests are eager to join in. After all, many have worked or known the three for years and can attack them with comic effect, like Melissa McCarthy’s withering assessment of how Mr. Bateman will eat a salad like it’s his last meal on Earth. “You do like to shovel in a salad like no one else I have ever seen,” she told him on an August 2020 podcast. “I’m always like, ‘It’s not going to run out of the bowl. You can take it down a couple of notches. It’s not going anywhere.’”

When Mr. Hayes asked Bradley Cooper if his 4-year-old daughter started singing “Who Let the Dogs Out?” after watching his ribald, 2009 R-rated comedy, “The Hangover,” Mr. Cooper shot back: “Yeah, I showed it to her. We watch it every Friday.”

Mr. Arnett then said to Mr. Hayes: “You know what? I’m glad you didn’t have kids! And now I get why your father left, too.”

Discussions can occasionally turn dark. On his episode, Mr. Cooper opened up about his cocaine addiction and the internal pressures he faced in his early days in Hollywood. More recently, Rashida Jones comforted Mr. Arnett after he said he’d gone through a “heavy” therapy session the morning of a recent taping.

“The way they take care of their guests is so loose,” said the actress Kathryn Hahn. “That’s why it’s such a fun place to stop on any kind of publicity tour or whatever. You know you can take a breath and they’ll take over and they’ll keep moving.”

These podcasts aren’t the stoic sit-downs of “60 Minutes.” They don’t have the clean, crisp, prepackaged performance feel of late-night talk shows. Nor do the interviews have the narrative depth heard on the deep-dive interviews conducted by either Mr. Stern or the comedian Marc Maron on his “WTF” podcast.

And the hosts are fine with that.

“We’re not doing investigative journalism where we would think, ‘Yes, please listen, and you should be listening, because we really researched this and tried hard,’” Mr. Bateman said. “It’s comfort food.”

It’s also messy. The three often jostle to speak to their guest. Stories are started, then stopped without reason. Non sequiturs often rule the hour.

“I used to read those comments when we would post new shows and they would say, ‘You cut people off,’” Mr. Arnett said. “‘You’re the worst interviewers.’”

Mr. Bateman added, “But that’s the way conversations go.”

‘There’s a Finite Universe of Megatalent’

When the trio first started “SmartLess,” they did so on their own dime, paying for all the production costs. As the months went on, they wondered whether they would ever recoup their investment. Should they keep doing this? Should they just quit?

Soon, their audience numbers gave them their answer: No.

As listenership rose, advertisers like AutoZone and Zip Recruiter followed. The show was no longer a way for three friends to stay in close contact through isolation; it was a business. The podcast reached profitability by the end of its first year.

In spring 2021, Mr. Arnett solicited and received what the trio described as “an extraordinary offer” for the licensing rights to “SmartLess.” After turning it down, they knew it was time to bring in the adults.

One stood out: CAA’s Josh Lindgen, who in 2021 had been appointed the first official head of the talent agency’s podcast department and who had already established himself as a key player in this competitive space, negotiating podcast deals for clients like Ava DuVernay, Jordan Peele and Mick Jagger.

Sitting down with the group, Mr. Lindgen quickly realized that this was not a vanity project or a side gig started on a whim.

“The podcast might be called ‘SmartLess,’” Mr. Lindgen said in a recent interview, “but they’re actually three very smart guys.

“They’re smart about money,” Mr. Lindgen continued. “They’re smart about the work and where they put their time. They understand the media landscape. Together, I think we saw this opportunity. The north star became to build this into a media company — more than just the one podcast, which is a juggernaut.”

In June of that year, just a month after the trio signed with CAA, the agency negotiated a three-year distribution deal for “SmartLess” with Wondery, the podcast network owned by Amazon. (Though none of the principals will confirm the figure, Bloomberg reported the deal was worth $60 million to $80 million.) One sweetener: The most devoted fans could pay extra to listen to the podcasts a week before their official airing.

The “SmartLess” trio soon began to expand their reach. They started SmartLess Media and created their initial batch of new podcasts, including “Bad Dates” and “Just Jack and Will.” Last year, “SmartLess: On the Road,” a six-part, black-and-white docuseries chronicling their six-city tour, debuted on the Max streaming service. (And last month, SmartLess Media launched their latest podcast — a soccer show called “GoalLess,” featuring the British comedian Russell Howard and the soccer broadcaster Chris Wittyngham — bringing to seven the number of podcasts now under the SmartLess umbrella, with more in the production pipeline.)

As the company — and its ambitions — grew, the three men began to think about what the future might look like beyond their first deal with Amazon, which was scheduled to expire in summer 2024. Once that exclusivity period expired, and SiriusXM expressed strong interest, the three decided to make the move.

Mr. Hayes said they were seeking a business partner who understood their desires to expand their media footprint. And they found it in Scott Greenstein, SiriusXM’s president and chief content officer. “This was easy for us,” Mr. Greenstein said. “It fits right in our wheelhouse of our business model of having major talent with great ad revenue, great awareness and great P.R. value.”

Under the three-year agreement, Sirius will sell ads and distribute “SmartLess” and its offspring podcasts, including those still in development. As with paying listeners on Amazon’s Wondery, subscribers to SiriusXM’s service have access to the podcast a week before the wide release.

For SiriusXM, the deal with the “SmartLess” team — as well as one with Alex Cooper to bring her “Call Her Daddy” podcast over from Spotify for a reported offer worth up to $125 million — is the company’s latest effort to find new revenues and additional listeners. (A representative for SiriusXM declined to confirm the dollar amounts for either deal.)

To be sure, boldness is needed here. A generation ago, SiriusXM’s channels changed the American commute. It still maintains a subscriber base of 33 million people in its satellite radio business. But in the first half of 2024, SiriusXM lost 458,000 subscribers. In early September, SirusXM split off from John Malone’s Liberty Media.

Already, the company has made clear that its future will rely heavily on podcasts. SiriusXM poured money into talent like Conan O’Brien and the “Crime Junkie” host Ashley Flowers. It also launched a subscription service in August through Apple Podcasts: SiriusXM Podcasts+.

“These are not cowboy moves,” Mr. Greenstein said. “These are very smart, calculated deals on very rare talent that’s out there. In other words, you look at it and you go, ‘There’s a finite universe of megatalent that really moves the needle and has worked.’”

And the podcasting business, after a slow 2023 — when annual double-digit revenue gains slowed to about 5 percent — seems to be back on track. As Bloomberg reported in July: “Last year’s podcast headlines couldn’t have been any bleaker. After years of massive, attention-grabbing deals, the industry was suffering through some major bumps. Layoffs, company closures, show cancellations and acrimonious lawsuits became weekly occurrences.” But it added: “Those dark days appear to be ending as the industry begins to bounce back. Everywhere you look in the field, optimism — excitement, even — is returning.”

In May, The Hollywood Reporter, citing figures from the Interactive Advertising Bureau, noted that advertising revenue in the podcasting sector was projected to reach close to $2.6 billion in revenue by 2026, up from a predicted $2 billion in 2024. According to the magazine, the fastest-growing podcasting genre is now comedy, leading both sports and news.

‘It’s Very Seductive’

About 30 minutes into their conversation at Stephen Talkhouse, Mr. Stern and Mr. Hayes discussed an unlikely bond: They each had a parent, both now deceased, with an artificial eye. Mr. Stern spoke about the secrecy that had surrounded his father’s prosthetic, and his obsession with its origin. Mr. Hayes talked about a similar experience with his mother, but felt compelled to share the frightfully lewd jokes he and his siblings made about hers.

“This show has to be canceled,” said Mr. Stern, certainly no stranger to indelicate humor. “Very ridiculous. That is very offensive.”

Finally, Mr. Bateman asked Mr. Hayes: “Where is the eye now?”

“My sister has it in a box,” Mr. Hayes said.

“Is it like a timeshare?” Mr. Bateman said. “You get it if you want it for the holidays?”

Ten minutes later, after Mr. Hayes posed a question to Mr. Fallon, seated in the audience, he decided to join the crew.

“Uh-oh!” Mr. Stern said. “He’s coming up to the stage! Listen, he’s never going to leave!”

A week later, another veteran of late-night television, Jimmy Kimmel, host of ABC’s “Jimmy Kimmel Live,” said he understood the appeal of podcasting, having worked as a radio disc jockey early in his career.

“I think it’s very seductive,” Mr. Kimmel said. “I’m going to call it the radio — because that’s basically what it is.” He added, “To me, it is the purest form of broadcasting.”

What’s next for the “SmartLess” hosts? As they continue to explore opportunities beyond audio, they also acknowledge that their future could be as unpredictable as the journey they embarked on four years ago.

“We didn’t get into this thinking that we were going to establish a brand,” Mr. Arnett said. “Jason made up a word. We started doing a podcast.”

Mr. Bateman added, “It’s not lost on me, personally, that the single most successful thing in my career is something that we never even thought was going to be a job.”

Inside the Media Industry