“I Know Something Secret About the World”: Takahisa Zeze on Sukiyaki and a Life in Pink Film

How a nationally concentrated festival opens is a pretty good indication of where a current cinema sees itself. And for how Takahisa Zeze’s Sukiyaki splits the difference between splashy start and larger bellwether, things are okay in Japan. While not the best film I saw at this year’s Tokyo International Film Festival, it’s nowhere close to the worst—a much stronger deal than those many times I’ve sat in a theater and wondered if this was the best we (or “they,” or anybody) could do. Sukiyaki, a biopic of the three men who shaped Kyu Sakamoto’s Billboard-topping 1961 song “Ue o Muite Arukō,” bears the expectations of both a festival-opener and studio biopic without sacrificing Zeze’s sensibilities—a breezy-enough 155 minutes that makes charming, sometimes truly moving drama from musical legacies while pivoting on galvanizing narrative and formal choices. And it’s no culturally indistinguishable work: a New York premiere at Japan Society that’s scheduled for November 11 has already sold out.

But it is largely impossible to imagine an American with Zeze’s career path. He began his career as a writer and assistant director in Japan’s pornographic pink film industry, eventually coming to be known as one of the “Four Heavenly Kings of Pink.” His transition into mainstream filmmaking engendered some of the darkest, finest Japanese thrillers of the ‘90s. By today he’s something of an elder statesman, or at least a local workhorse, putting out an average of one work a year. To wit: as his masterclass at this year’s TIFF came to a close, I was handed an attractive flyer for his next feature, All That Exists, which stars Hidetoshi Nishijima and Suzu Hirose and opens domestically on February 5. Zeze is not slowing down, yet thoughts on his present and past activities are lucid.

My thanks to Chizuru Koide for providing on-site interpretation.

The Film Stage: I watched the masterclass, and as I left they handed me this. I can’t read Japanese, so I didn’t know what it was until I pulled up Google Translate. I just couldn’t believe you’ve made another film already. I don’t know if “system” is the word, but what is your creative and personal drive to make so many films? How do you maintain not just your physical stamina, but creative excitement?

Takahisa Zeze: For me, moviemaking is the same as living. Even though it’s work and a job, through movies I learn about the world and I make acquaintances with others. Moviemaking makes me feel that I know something secret about the world. Those are the things that’s creating my excitement to keep on creating movies.

Do you think every film teaches you about the world?

Yes, every film teaches me something about the world.

What did making Sukiyaki teach you about the world, yourself, or the culture of your own country?

The reason why I decided to create the movie is because I was interested in the life of the main character. Because in the later years, he suffered depression and also from diabetes, but even when he was suffering from those things, still he worked on creating music. There’s a book written by Hachidai Nakamura titled Born on This Planet. So I think he was interested in forever, or the far future, or the far planet, and I think that feeling he had for our future is very close to the purity of the music he created, and I wanted to connect that theme with life and death through this film.

And by watching the actors, I wanted them to express how people can overcome the scary feeling of death. That was what I learned through the creation of this film.

A lot of your films I’ve seen are very dark, disturbing, scary. This movie kind of surprised me because it felt very sincere—I didn’t sense any irony in the depiction of the musicians or their music. Does that come from a place of respect?

I think you are right, because the reason why I made this film is because I was thinking about how people could be scared thinking about death, but as a movie, I think we need to explain or show how people could overcome that scary feeling through the music. That was, in the end, what I wanted to express through this film.

I’m also interested in some of the political dimensions of Sukiyaki. You have this man who died in the Holocaust serving as a spiritual guide, and you highlight the cultural segregation of Black musicians in Harlem. A political dimension in your films is nothing new, but I’m curious about how you latched onto that aspect in a story about popular culture—a song that was so widely accepted.

Back in the 1960s, Black people were suppressed, and there was immense difficulty with their music. When we talk about that era, in the 1960s, there is always this root to that suffering of the Black music. When we think about how Japanese musicians wanted to create music in Japan, we always wanted to touch upon that political aspect because it’s always connected—even when we are talking about Japanese people creating music in Japan, it’s always connected thinking about that particular era.

I also wanted to ask about the presence of English-speaking actors in the film—the Jewish musician, the Black musicians in Harlem, the racist shopkeeper. How comfortable do you feel directing English-language actors? Is there something unique about them as performers compared to a Japanese cast?

So yes: I don’t speak or understand English that well, so that’s definitely going to be a challenge when we are working with English speakers. But even when I don’t understand the language itself, I still know if this actor is expressing the full emotions or haunted with emotions. So I can say if this acting was good or bad by looking at the acting, even when I don’t understand the language. So in that sense, there isn’t much difference between Japanese actors and English-speaking actors.

Takahisa Zeze

From the perspective of an American who loves Japanese film, it can be hard to grasp the national ecosystem from afar. There are directors like Kurosawa, Kore-eda, Hamaguchi, and Yamazaki whose films get distributed in the U.S. Then there are directors like yourself—a great one making a film every year and doing well domestically, but they don’t travel to America as frequently. You make a film every year, which counts as success, but how do you feel about your role in the Japanese film world?

Basically, Japanese films are quite domestic—most of them are staged in Japan. Directors like Kurosawa and Kore-eda, they are so special; they have this author aspect of themselves upfront, so those might be the reasons they are traveling so much overseas. To speak about myself, I was in the commercial Japanese film industry. Within this world and industry, which is domestic, I was thinking about what interesting movies I could make that will relate to the audience. So those were the themes for me, being in the commercial Japanese film ecosystem. Those might be the reasons why it’s difficult for my films to travel abroad—not only me, but many of the Japanese films.

How much do you think the interests and trends of the Japanese audience fluctuate?

So yes: there are fluctuations and different trends. Currently, what’s popular is movies for teenagers based on light novels. That’s kind of a trend now. Also, horror movies are a major trend that we are seeing right now. That is because it can be made with low budgets; that is a factor.

There’s a quote of yours where you mentioned transitioning from directing pink films to “normal” films. What was that career transition like for you? Was that intentional?

When I was making pink films, that was in the ‘90s, when directors like Takeshi Kitano, Koreeda-san, or Kurosawa-san were showing their films in the overseas film festivals. It was kind of a boom to bring the films to the overseas film festivals, and that may be because my film was brought to the Rotterdam Film Festival. So Japanese films were kind of a boom—were drawing attention from the global audience around that time—and that may be the reason I was asked to make a commercial horror movie, which came to be Kokkuri. So that was the first “normal.”

After that, I also made pink films while starting to work on normal films. And I think I was lucky to be asked to make those movies, because making only pink films would not help sustain my life because the budgets were low and the earnings were low, so it was difficult to make ends meet only by making pink films. The fact that I was brought to the mainstream was a lucky opportunity for me, but still, at the same time, it was kind of a difficult situation as well because making normal films is losing freedom. When I was making pink films, it gave me more freedom to do whatever I liked. But by moving into the normal movies, there were more restrictions and I had to fit into certain systems. It was kind of a trade-off to get into the mainstream of movies. But just recently, I found how my way could work well within the controlled, mainstream environment.

I don’t know if you’re aware, but there’s been a major rise of interest and nostalgia for pink films in the United States. Pinku and Roman Porno box sets are coming out, and New York’s Japan Society is soon running a retrospective of those films as well. A number of Hisayasu Satō box sets are also coming out. Does that surprise you or make you happy?

Yes, I’m actually very happy to hear about the revival of pink films in the U.S. I worked for a lot of Satō-san’s films myself as an assistant director, so maybe a few of those titles might be the ones with my assistant direction. Satō-san would love to hear about this revival of pink films in the U.S. as well, so I will tell him about this. Maybe he already knows, but he will be happy for sure.

They’re lavish box sets, complete with booklets of critical writing. Your name comes up in them many times.

Arigato. [Laughs]

Sukiyaki premiered at the 39th Tokyo International Film Festival and opens in Japan on December 25.